Seriously though. I like the idea. You plan on being the reviewer guy? Will I be able to search a mood quickly?
Why you....
How come there's not a quixote smiley? Maybe this one?
As for searching... eventually we'll add some robustness to the site. My code-guru's wife just had their second baby, so he's a bit... preoccupied... at the moment.
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mick
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/01 18:52Windmills aside I think the music genome project is the solution to this. It works very if people understand how to rate the "genes".
It is one possible solution but there are a few others (MuzickBrains) and I am sure more coming. Using these very extensive systems the idea of genre will eventually be put to rest. "Genes" are constructed from a list of know attributes and rated from 1 to 5 using half integers only (why not just use 1 to 10?) Anyway, this are then used to construct "genes" that can be compared to other songs.
They are kind of currently flawed because genre is a base used to apply the "genes". So for instance, rock and pop music has about 150 genes (attributes), hip-hop 350, jazz 400, etc. The "wider" the music "genre" the more genes used to describe it. Here's what they consist of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Music_Genome_Project_attributes
Now, if instead EVERY song where rated for EVERY attribute and genre was ignored, then we might be on to something. This is truly genre-less. That's like 960 attributes for songs right now (assuming 1 - 10 for each category) we need 4-bits per attributes. That's only 480 bytes of genes per song. Not much by today's standards at all. But the categories need a lot of work.
For instance, let's use it to describe Aldeles. It has acoustic guitar, didjeridu, mandolin, fiddle, hand percussion, synthesized electric bass, trap drums. Those are pretty easy to describe using the attributes listed, but what about the didjeridu? There' s no category that fits it but you could give it a high rating in "Unique Instrumentation". Some, are however, truly great such as "Call-and-Response Melody", "prominent percussion", and let's not forget "Production by an Iconic Producer" (my test to see if anybody is really reading this). What about Isilwanyazane? It's jaw harp, snare and didj? It's rhythm only. It's beatless. "It just f'ing weird" as I've been told. You can barely describe it with the current attributes at all.
So it has a few problems to solve in attribute but I have always wanted to take a stab at this. Pandora uses it but it has very limited music. It might be VERY cool to do this with the RPM database since it is a limited library of music AND has a lot of variety that would put any attribute system to the test.
I would think you'd need about 5 people rating every song in every attribute and then taken the average or mode to actually rate songs. The problem is the rating is so subjective that unless the same 10 people ALWAYS did it, it wouldn't work so well. Is Aldeles a 4 in "Unique Instrumentation" or 6. Is it a 8 or 5 in "Prominent Mandolin Part"? That's the tough part.
But I believe it has potential.
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Joshua Wentz
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/01 20:37The problem is the rating is so subjective that unless the same 10 people ALWAYS did it, it wouldn't work so well. Is Aldeles a 4 in "Unique Instrumentation" or 6. Is it a 8 or 5 in "Prominent Mandolin Part"? That's the tough part.
But I believe it has potential.
Subjectivity really is the crux of the problem. In scientific categorization, indisputable values can be placed on things. The Thermosphere begins 80km up from sea level... that's something you can count on...
Then again... didn't we recently have a brou-ha-ha over what bodies are planets? Even in lock-value disciplines, categorization is fiercely debated.
My position that art labels devalue art comes from the extreme subjectivity of the medium. The fact that we can't even classify "Isilwanyazane" on it's known physical values means we have no hope of distilling it's "feel" to an term that will mean the same thing to everyone.
Post edited by: Joshua Wentz, at: 2008/05/01 20:42
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BrokenPromiseKeeper
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/01 21:02this has probably already been covered in the earlier genre discussions, but isn't it basic human nature to compare something to something else? sorta like "_____tastes like chicken" or "she looks like _____," so you get "this sounds like _____." it's just what people do, isn't it? categorize based on familiarity?
kudos for what you're trying to accomplish, but for me, genres are not a big deal. my favorite type of music is typically called "power pop" but to me that's also an ideal. If a song comes close to hitting the energy and catchiness of, say, "Paperback Writer" or "Surrender" then it's achieved powerpopness.
but I understand the frustration if I wrote tunes in all sorts of musical styles or wasn't comfortable with being labeled.
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Joshua Wentz
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/01 21:15As I mention in the essay, I really have no problem with an artist giving his/her/their sound a name. I mean, they've given their band a name, their song a name, etc... all because those words have meaning to the particular artwork. If that term, such as "powerpop" is not unique to the artist, but rather a sort of collective movement in music, that's fine. That is definitely serving a portion of the purpose, but there needs to be an awareness that the term will have no real meaning to some, if not most, people.
As Kemmler had mentioned previously in this thread, there is a possibility of the ego taking over, to the extent that people may feel the need to give their music a new name because they feel that what they're doing has never been done. I think that's the wrong reason to give yourself a label. But I don't see how capturing wildly disparate things under the same umbrella could serve any purpose other than confusion.
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mick
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/01 21:27Yeah, Rob, in fact, living with neuroscientist I have learned that categorization is not only human nature by forced by the brain. It categorizes everything. In fact, even sound is categorized. Music, language, noise, and then further categorized into notes, formants (then into letters, then words, etc), what kind of noise (animal call, machinery, etc). The real strange thing is the brain stores everything invariant.
That's why we can recognize a song regardless of key. The brain stores the interval changes and durations of the song, not the notes. As long as the same intervals are there for the same duration, we'll recognize it as the same song regardless of key. And it's even damn flexible about the duration because they are also stored not as real durations but relative to each other. So you'll recognize at any tempo.
That's why we're a ll be quite Quixotic here trying un-categorize music. It's against our biology.
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Now, if instead EVERY song where rated for EVERY attribute and genre was ignored, then we might be on to something. This is truly genre-less. That's like 960 attributes for songs right now (assuming 1 - 10 for each category)
. . .
I would think you'd need about 5 people rating every song in every attribute .
I hardly have time to read this never mind rate a song for each of a thousand attributes
How long would you think this would take for any given song? Am I understanding this correctly?
Is there an attribute called "catchy"?
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mick
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/01 22:03Come on, Stu, if we assume 20 minutes per song we're only talking about 222 man days for all the RPM songs. You volunteering?
PS Get that package yet?
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If there is, it has to be derived by the following formula:
Catchiness is equal to X (the song) plus y(n) (the quantity of memorability to the power of number of times recalled) over delta-t (time) times the sum of all human existence leading up to the song.
Sorry if I've offended math people with my uneducated formulizing!
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If there is, it has to be derived by the following formula:
Sorry if I've offended math people with my uneducated formulizing!
I'm not buying it, Josh. I think you're too Newtonian. I am pretty sure catchiness has to do with the curve of space-time and that is relativistic in nature so you need some tensor calculus.
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Post edited by: Joshua Wentz, at: 2008/05/01 22:10
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BrokenPromiseKeeper
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/01 22:20I'm pretty sure the catchiness formula has a coefficient for foot tapping, air guitar playing, or dashboard drumming
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If there is, it has to be derived by the following formula:
Is that logo rhythmical?
Mick - not yet - I live in hope
I have to agree that catchiness is probably faster than light and thereby traverses the whole universe curving around to the first chorus again before you've finished humming it and then hits you in the back of the head.
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Joshua Wentz
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/01 23:28I think that would be covered in "y", and a separate equation would be necessary to derive that value.
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Gary Fox
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/02 03:58Genre. Genre, genre, genre...Well, what we have with this thread is really a discussion of greater proportions. With genre the discussion is really touching on the following: (and probably more)
1. The need for the human brain to organize and categorize 2. The need for our egos to simultaneously belong and stand apart (and our desires to control when both of those situations occur)
Labeling something enables us to better approach it. It goes back to basic survival instincts; "Is this known or foreign? Is it safe or will it kill me?" Whether we like it or not, every one of us will be categorized using existing labels. This isn't really a surprise to any of us, but it does lead us into the 2nd point. Do we like the label?
For example, Broken Promise Keeper is fine with his label of power pop; it's a group he likes, identifies with, and would be happy to recognized as a part of. Conversely, Room 34 was unhappy being put in with alternative/punk. It's not necessarily that he doesn't like alternative or punk, maybe he loves it, maybe he hates it, but in a larger sense it's more that he believes his music was completely misunderstood, and that he doesn't belong in that group. Some of us rail against any categorization of our work. Maybe it's because we want to be completely unique, or we just want someone to really take some time to get to know it rather than slapping an insta-label on it. It ain’t gonna happen. Everyone is wired to insta-label and most people don’t want to do the work it takes to get more precise. ‘Close enough’ so to speak...
A fellow musician told me for years that I sound just like the guy from Guadalcanal Diary. He meant it as a compliment; I however hated it for years. Main reason? I interpreted that to mean that I belonged in that whole college indie rock movement of the early/mid 80's. The people I knew who were into that music at the time were SO f***ing pretentious and self righteous...it colored my entire view so that I was very unhappy about that label. Now that it's years later I don't care about the association. I actually like Guadalcanal Diary and other bands of that era, but it took a while to be able to get over my big bad self and the whole identity politics thing. (Bravo for me, I am so lovely) However, I still have a visceral reaction to any label put on me, whether it's "You sound like this band" or "Yeah, you are kind of this style". Sometimes I smile and say thanks if I am ok with the association and other times I smile and say "hmm, wow, never heard that one before, appreciate you thinking about it" if I am not ok with it (try to be polite Fox, it won't kill you) By the way, I don’t think I sound anything like the guy for Guadalcanal Diary. (Did I just inadvertently make my own point?)
So, anyway, I am blabbing away, I don't really have a solution per se; just observations.
Cheers,
Gary
By the way, I love the “Catchy” genre. It’s a group I like, identify with and would like to be considered a part of by everyone.
Post edited by: Gary Fox, at: 2008/05/02 04:01
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ACL
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/02 04:33mick wrote: That's why we're a ll be quite Quixotic here trying un-categorize music. It's against our biology.
Uhhhhh...
Mick - are you saying that human beings are incapable of change? That we have no control over the way we process information? That we are in fact hard-wired to this form of cognitive behaviour?
Hmmm.
kirk (& wendy, who loves joshua's equation), aka acl
P.S. And no, Gary- you do not sound like Murray Attaway (Guadacanal Diary). And not all of their fans were pretentious bozos - well, at least I wasn't - I just loved seeing them live. They seriously kicked ass; for a four piece, they had a HUGE sound.
But no, Gary. You sound like You.
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tangmo
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/02 04:54Sort of depends on what you heard first, too. Since I've never even heard OF--much less HEARD Guatacanal Diary I would be much more inclined to say they remind me of Gary Fox if I should ever chance to encounter them.
It's easy for me. I already have the truth and the light. All music flows from Jethro Tull. Music that preceded them merely foreshadowed them. Music contemporary with them was like unto them by degree. Music that follows them shall live up to them by degree.
Music that they didn't do is conveniently packaged into two camps. (Packaged into 2 camps? No, I'm not going back and removing that mixed metaphor--live with it) There is music that Jethro Tull would do, and music that Jethro Tull would not do. Simple. Elegant. With the side benefit of being true.
Post edited by: tangmo, at: 2008/05/02 04:56
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Gary Fox
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/02 06:17ACL wrote: P.S. And no, Gary- you do not sound like Murray Attaway (Guadacanal Diary). And not all of their fans were pretentious bozos - well, at least I wasn't - I just loved seeing them live. They seriously kicked ass; for a four piece, they had a HUGE sound.
But no, Gary. You sound like You. Thanks Kirk. Very kind. Yeah, I should be more careful about how I say that. I just remember getting a lot of flack because I was just as happy listening to Revolver as I was Flip Your Wig. Or that I liked the Joshua Tree as much as I did Boy or October. Or, sin of all sins, after being dragged to a Cocteau Twins show in Boston, I commented aloud that it reminded me of Disney Under The Sea, minus the shapely female skaters in body suits.
But I digress...
I still want to see the genre Heavy Leather take off. Then my life would be complete.
Cheers,
Gary
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thel1195
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/02 06:22This is hard to follow. G-Nome sounds complicated. Jethro Tull? Was that the lead singer or the guy who played the flute? I know Tull fans hate that. I tried to read some sense into this post, but if I read correctly, its all about labels. Many of what RPMer's do crosses over the normal genre. I read the idea of disconstructing. So we'll make our own. We can use colors. Blue Red Yellow Blue, Red, and Yellow are primary colors, pure colors for easily caterized items. Yellow can be acoustic instuments. Red electric instruments. Blue, electronic instruments. A typical rock trio (bass, guitar, drums) is a Red, i.e 2 electrics to one acoustic. Orange (yellow red), Green(yellow blue) or Purple (red blue) for the equal combinations.
Like electric guitar? The Electric (Red) disc will have many different flavors, but the same instruments. But you may also be interested in the Orange disc with more of an acoustic sound, or the Purple disc with more of an electronic feel.
AS with anything, its all subjective. Let each artist apply these as they see fit to thier own work. As a community, we respect each artists' choice.
Thoughts??
Post edited by: thel1195, at: 2008/05/02 06:25
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strangerepublik
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/02 11:13thel1195 wrote: This is hard to follow. G-Nome sounds complicated. Jethro Tull? Was that the lead singer or the guy who played the flute? I know Tull fans hate that. I tried to read some sense into this post, but if I read correctly, its all about labels. Many of what RPMer's do crosses over the normal genre. I read the idea of disconstructing. So we'll make our own. We can use colors. Blue Red Yellow Blue, Red, and Yellow are primary colors, pure colors for easily caterized items. Yellow can be acoustic instuments. Red electric instruments. Blue, electronic instruments. A typical rock trio (bass, guitar, drums) is a Red, i.e 2 electrics to one acoustic. Orange (yellow red), Green(yellow blue) or Purple (red blue) for the equal combinations.
Like electric guitar? The Electric (Red) disc will have many different flavors, but the same instruments. But you may also be interested in the Orange disc with more of an acoustic sound, or the Purple disc with more of an electronic feel.
AS with anything, its all subjective. Let each artist apply these as they see fit to thier own work. As a community, we respect each artists' choice.
Though I would suggest that, instead of applying colors to instruments, use the colors to describe the feeling the songs evoke.
For example: we associate Red with anger, so songs from a band like Rage would fit that color.
Since there are an infinite amount of colors (and color names), any song could fit into this 'scale.'
I don't know about everyone else, but this works for me.
Thanks for suggesting it!
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kavin
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/02 14:36thel1195 wrote: We can use colors. Blue Red Yellow Blue, Red, and Yellow are primary colors, pure colors for easily caterized items. Yellow can be acoustic instuments. Red electric instruments. Blue, electronic instruments. A typical rock trio (bass, guitar, drums) is a Red, i.e 2 electrics to one acoustic. Orange (yellow red), Green(yellow blue) or Purple (red blue) for the equal combinations.
Yeah, I definitely dig that idea. Last time I heard colors was when I did those 'shrooms back in high school.
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strummindude
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Re:A possible solution to Genre. Or not. - 2008/05/02 15:22thel1195 wrote: We can use colors. Blue Red Yellow Blue, Red, and Yellow are primary colors, pure colors for easily caterized items. Yellow can be acoustic instuments. Red electric instruments. Blue, electronic instruments. A typical rock trio (bass, guitar, drums) is a Red, i.e 2 electrics to one acoustic. Orange (yellow red), Green(yellow blue) or Purple (red blue) for the equal combinations.
Like electric guitar? The Electric (Red) disc will have many different flavors, but the same instruments. But you may also be interested in the Orange disc with more of an acoustic sound, or the Purple disc with more of an electronic feel. Thoughts??<br><br>Post edited by: thel1195, at: 2008/05/02 06:25
Here's a though: Mine would turn a color almost, but not quite, exactly resembling poop.
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One is the colour of the tune and the other is the number of pints that the tune is optimised for. Which then governs what time of night you present the tune to the audience. Obviously this is not a linear scale, it tends to be linear towards midnight, peaks just after 12 and then starts to droop. Also it is not necessarily the same for audience and musician.
A seven pint audience tune might be Top 40 corn that your grandmother can hum in the kitchen, but a seven pint musicians tune most distinctive feature is that it is easy to play
It's also important to bear in mind that male humans only have a 16 colour spectrum and don't distinguish colours like 'mauve' or 'puce', whereas females have a 256 colour screen and mother-in-laws see in thousands of colours (but with awful contrast). Young children see in millions of colours. Unfortunately they are all called yellow or pink or green.
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