The RPM Challenge - Re:Had to scrap 2 &quot;soundalike&quot; songs already... -

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the16points

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Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/13 20:12 So far I've already had to scrap two songs due to unintentional "inspiration."

The first sounded a bit too close to the Saints' "(I'm) Stranded," while the other surprisingly resembled a Coldplay song called "Sparks."

Neither song is something I'd listened to recently. The "Stranded" reference makes some sense, since I'd played it once at a show with a friend. So you'd expect there to be a memory of it (still, it's been a few years since I'd heard it).

The Coldplay swipe is an odd one, though. I'd been playing with a simple chord progression - capo on the 3rd fret, playing on open F#m figure (leaving the low and high E's open) and an A-dim-7th figure, going for a pseudo-folk-jazz feel. As I was trying to come with a melodic bassline over this riff, I kept thinking it sounded familiar.

Finally, I started hearing Coldplay vocals in my head. Nothing specific, but just the sound of that guy's voice. Finally, I had to search through Amazon.com's mp3s, listening to a bunch of Coldplay songs, until I found "Sparks" -- and there it was, a little switched, with the capo on the 4th fret and the progression inverted to A to F#m. But the tempo, the rhythm, the feel were all very similar.

Not to bag on Coldplay, but I don't really listen to them, and I don't really listen to any radio stations that play them. And it's not a bad song - I just couldn't tell you where I'd ever heard it, even though it sounded familiar. It's just odd that that song would influence my writing.

I guess with my direct influences, it's easier to control them - I know if I song is starting too much like Costello or something -- and I can fine tune it... "I want to steal from this song, but only so much"

But when you're unconsciously influenced by the various background noises of the general culture, how do you control that? We're subconsciously picking up all sorts of bits and pieces -- and in a scenario where we're trying to bang out 10 songs in a month, I'm sure many of us are leaving some of the inspiration to our subconscious.

For example, I was playing around with a "Heatwave"-type 3 chord riff the other day, only to realize that the same riff has shown up recently in not one, but two commercials.

In my case, I know that I'm purposely trying on different hats with each song -- one's a spacey instrumental, another is indie-pop, another is quasi "cock-rock," another is a moody, folky song -- but I want them to only evoke certain genres, not specific songs... Is anyone else struggling with this? Not so much wearing your influences on your sleeve, but rather pick up on the random bits of sound in the ether?

...another long-winded post from the16points

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ilovejen

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/13 20:25 Let me tell you something. All pop music lives in the world of western tonal harmony. No matter what you do, it has already been done in some form. If you are doing diatonic music within a key (as is 99% of all rock, pop, jazz, soul, rap, et. al.) you are bound to sound like something else - if not directly using the same chord progression. But guess what, someone else did it before what ever popular artist you think you are stealing from.

There's only so many combinations of I, IV, and V.

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brantleyallen

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/13 20:45 There are only 13 notes. You've got the same ones as everyone else. It's ok if something resembles something else. Of course, if it bothers you, you have to reconcile it for yourself.

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tangmo

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/13 21:15 You're living my nightmare. A while back a buddy told me something I'd done sounded like the theme from Hee Haw. I almost had a stroke. But of course, that's what he intended and it didn't sound anything at all like the Theme from Hee Haw. That would be commercial. LOL.

'sTrue there's nothing really new under the sun in Pop music. As long as it's not tired, it's OK. Maybe you can keep the progression but change the rythm or the duration of the chords. But to me, if it still sounds good, doesn't matter if it's something of a lift...intentional or not.

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Kemmler

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/13 21:50 Yeah honestly I wouldn't worry about knocking off other artists. No offense but more famous, and possibly more talented people than you have based their careers on creatively (or uncreatively) using ideas "created" by other people.

Non musical example: andy warhol

I'm not one of these postmodernists who go around trumpeting "the death of the author"... but you have to accept the idea that there is nothing out there that is 100% bright, shiny, brand new, waiting for you to discover it.

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ilovejen

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/13 21:56 And it should be noted that in the early 20th century there was a movement towards serialism. I won't go into details, but basically every combination of the chromatic scale and/or sequence of triads has been done.

So, yeah. Can't avoid unintentionally doing something that has been done prior.

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mick

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/13 21:58 1,000 monkeys with 1,000 guitars will do it all in some 25 billion years anyway.

Glad to be one of those, too.

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ajbrewer

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/13 22:17 Personally, I've for a long time seen music more as something that "evolves," as opposed to something that's completely "created." (Sounds like the beginning of a religious war or something....lol...but not now....we're in happy RPM land). In other words, like the others said, yea, in some ways, there's not much that has not been done. We say this or that person created this or that type of music, but if you're going to be technical, it's probably a false statement. A lot of new music is based on what people hear around them, or just what they experience. British heavy metal (Black Sab, etc) came about because these people heard tons of factories around them, suit all over the place, it was kind of dreary, etc., and so the music reflected that. Then comes Van Halen, and they sound happy, well, of course, they're from California. But a lot of the technical things that all of these guys did had already been done by plenty of bluesmen and others that came before them. They just found a way of altering it somewhat that reflected what was going on around them. Electronic music I would say is the same thing....that's what people hear around them, of course they're going to use it. But it's all based on stuff that came before.

Personally, a lot of the times the way that I work, I start off with a song or something similar to a song I know. Then I try to screw with the rhythm more than anything. Then sometimes screw some with the major/minor chords to suit the feeling. Basically, take a song, start slicing and dicing and see what I can come up with. Which is partially based on stuff I hear in electronica, rap, etc. But the individual licks within there was taken from stuff that was out there to begin with.

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bear hat

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/14 00:03 I would agree that all (to such a certain degree*) notes have been used in all of the possible ways they could be. I believe, however, that this is not the focus of music anymore! While melody and rhythm remain very important parts of sounds that are considered "musical", the area in which modern music is breaking new ground is in musical TEXTURES.

There are more ways to make musical sound now than ever before, ever, ever!. You could say "hey now that melody that has surely been written before would sound good on ACOUSTIC GUITAR" or you could say "well now how about I take a sample of the CEMENT MIXER outside my house and use software to create the melody that has surely been written before out of that." From there you can make a "drum" part out of rudely slapping your friends with cardboard tubes! Or sing your lyrics (which have probably been written before) through several coke cans taped to a small electric fan!!

I don't think Beethoven ever did those.

*Also, you could always detune all your instruments. Hey wow, new notes!

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Gary Fox

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/14 00:23 I like to do mid and high vox harmonies over my choruses, and I use overdriven Vox amps. As a result, people say "sounds like the Beatles", even though the chords and playing style are more of a Who ripoff.

It doesn't matter; I can't help but have my influences come through. That's why I like those bands in the first place. I purpusely avoid using Delay on my guitars so people don't say, wow, sounds like U2. I like the Edge, nice guy and all, but I have had enough comparisons.

Ilovejen has it right.

Cheers

Gary

PS-The song that induced the Beatle reference is Brighter

www.myspace.com/garyfox8

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the16points

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/14 03:11 Hey, wow - great feedback from everybody. I love that.

Gary - I went and listened to "Brighter" -- while the harmonies are "Beatle-esque" I wouldn't say it's overly obvious. It's good old power pop, and you seem to assimilated your influences nicely, so that they meld together into something of your own.

(I guess part of the problem is that I don't consider Coldplay an influence of mine. If someone said, That sounds like Elvis Costello, I'd be proud, but not necessarily so much if they said Coldplay

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lastman

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/14 03:48 Hmmm...yeah, I can see how the rhythm acoustic guitar sounds like Sparks, but with the other parts thrown in there, it sounds like a completely different song. I think Sparks has a capo on the 8th fret, but the chord progressions are probably very similar. I actually wrote a song very close to Sparks as well, awhile back...and, yes, I was disappointed that it sounded so close to Sparks because it was a beautiful song.

But, yeah, I run into the same issue: writing sounds that sound so much like other songs out there, and I totally agree with everyone on here about most songs are the same one way or another. My friend and I had this discussion the other day, actually, and we talked about how most songs use the same chord progressions but they just add different accompaniments to them to make them sound different...but good luck on the rest of your songs!

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dweeb

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Re:Had to scrap 2 "soundalike" songs already... - 2008/02/14 03:51 Once I wrote and recorded a number and was nearly done with it before I realized I just lifted the chords from Hotel California. I figured it out when I decided to put a big two-guitar solo at the end and I had them both rising in unison...DOH!!!

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Gary Fox

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Re:Had to scrap 2 - 2008/02/14 05:45 the16points wrote:
Hey, wow - great feedback from everybody. I love that.

Gary - I went and listened to "Brighter" -- while the harmonies are "Beatle-esque" I wouldn't say it's overly obvious. It's good old power pop, and you seem to assimilated your influences nicely, so that they meld together into something of your own.

(I guess part of the problem is that I don't consider Coldplay an influence of mine. If someone said, That sounds like Elvis Costello, I'd be proud, but not necessarily so much if they said Coldplay

...)

OK, for the sake of argument, I posted the very rough demo of the "Coldplay-esque" on my page here. I called it "Faux Jazz":

http://www.rpmchallenge.com/component/option,com_comprofiler/task,userProfile/user,4166/Itemid,1/

The Coldplay song Sparks can be sampled here:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_dmusic/002-1284383-2977600?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-music&field-keywords=coldplay&x=0&y=0

I guess they are different enough, but I feel like maybe it veers to closely? I thought about having this be a short instrumental, with a friend adding piano to it, and I fear that might even make it more Coldplayish...

Regardless, I love these responses - the thoughts that go on at this place are great!

Ok, went and listened to both. Yes, there are similarities, but yours (so far) definitely is brighter, more jazzy, almost an late 60's jazz sort of feel. Coldplay has the standard Coldplay ethereal sound going on. If this became a #1 hit in 30 different countries I suspect Chris Martin's lawyers may come knocking, but for RPM I think you can run with it. By the way, my ears don't hear piano on it. I hear soft female vocals and brushes, maybe a sax. (low and breathy though, not wailing and definitely not Kenny G)

By the way, thanks for the kind words.

Cheers,

Gary

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JohnA

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Re:Had to scrap 2 - 2008/02/14 20:53 I recorded on the fly this lofty, solemn acoustic guitar song the other night, and was pretty proud of the feel of it. A buddy listened to it and said it sounded great and then said that it was neat and sounded like something Neil Young would do...
Neil Young would do...
Neil Young would do...
Neil Young would do...
Neil Young would do...
Oh, crap, I pulled out "unplugged" and then looked up the tab, and sure enough, I had done a fair job of copying "Helpless." Or so I thought. I listened to it again a few hours later, and then thought, if I changed a chord here and here, and then made sure the rhthym wasn't the same, it doesn't sound like Helpless at all.

Plus, I won't be using the word "Helpless" anywhere near the song.

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ilovejen

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Re:Had to scrap 2 - 2008/02/14 20:57 Gary Fox wrote:
the16points wrote:
Hey, wow - great feedback from everybody. I love that.

Gary - I went and listened to "Brighter" -- while the harmonies are "Beatle-esque" I wouldn't say it's overly obvious. It's good old power pop, and you seem to assimilated your influences nicely, so that they meld together into something of your own.

(I guess part of the problem is that I don't consider Coldplay an influence of mine. If someone said, That sounds like Elvis Costello, I'd be proud, but not necessarily so much if they said Coldplay

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strummindude

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Re:Had to scrap 2 - 2008/02/14 21:53 brantleyallen wrote:
There are only 13 notes. You've got the same ones as everyone else.

You must be cheating. I only gots 12! :-

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ilovejen

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Re:Had to scrap 2 - 2008/02/14 21:58 strummindude wrote:
brantleyallen wrote:
There are only 13 notes. You've got the same ones as everyone else.

You must be cheating. I only gots 12! :-

There's someone on here that's doing microtonal music I think on a 52 division of the octave. He's near me on Mercer Island - found him browsing the band map.

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sfsonarboy

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Re:Had to scrap 2 - 2008/02/14 22:30 If I had a dollar for every song I had to throw away 'cause Neil Young beat me to it I'd be a rich man...
JohnA wrote:
sounded like something Neil Young would do...
Neil Young would do...

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Raleigh

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Re:Had to scrap 2 - 2008/02/15 05:39 Last year, I worked on a piece that developed the exact same chord progression as an OMD song. So I rewrote in 5/4 and it became completely different. Changes in time signature or key signature can be ear-opening experiences.

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17string

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Re:Had to scrap 2 - 2008/02/16 02:21 Gary Fox wrote:
Ok, went and listened to both. Yes, there are similarities, but yours (so far) definitely is brighter, more jazzy, almost an late 60's jazz sort of feel. Coldplay has the standard Coldplay ethereal sound going on. If this became a #1 hit in 30 different countries I suspect Chris Martin's lawyers may come knocking, but for RPM I think you can run with it. By the way, my ears don't hear piano on it. I hear soft female vocals and brushes, maybe a sax. (low and breathy though, not wailing and definitely not Kenny G)

I'm with Gary on this. I was expecting to hear Joni Mitchell or Janis Ian ('At Seventeen') start crooning. Or if had been in 5/4 I would have thought maybe Jethro Tull's 'Living in the Past'. In any of those cases, it's the folky-jazz sound that I hear. As soon as I heard the Coldplay song, I thought "OMG! He's channeling Michael Franks!" So of the two tracks, my opinion (as little as it matters) is that the Coldplay tune is more derivative than yours. I hope you work your tune up; I'd like to hear the finished piece!

peace

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ilovejen

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Re:Had to scrap 2 - 2008/02/16 02:29 17string wrote:
Gary Fox wrote:
Ok, went and listened to both. Yes, there are similarities, but yours (so far) definitely is brighter, more jazzy, almost an late 60's jazz sort of feel. Coldplay has the standard Coldplay ethereal sound going on. If this became a #1 hit in 30 different countries I suspect Chris Martin's lawyers may come knocking, but for RPM I think you can run with it. By the way, my ears don't hear piano on it. I hear soft female vocals and brushes, maybe a sax. (low and breathy though, not wailing and definitely not Kenny G)

I'm with Gary on this. I was expecting to hear Joni Mitchell or Janis Ian ('At Seventeen') start crooning. Or if had been in 5/4 I would have thought maybe Jethro Tull's 'Living in the Past'. In any of those cases, it's the folky-jazz sound that I hear. As soon as I heard the Coldplay song, I thought "OMG! He's channeling Michael Franks!" So of the two tracks, my opinion (as little as it matters) is that the Coldplay tune is more derivative than yours. I hope you work your tune up; I'd like to hear the finished piece!

peace

Ha! See! Prior art!

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the16points

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Re:Had to scrap 2 - 2008/02/18 09:43 17string wrote:

I'm with Gary on this. I was expecting to hear Joni Mitchell or Janis Ian ('At Seventeen') start crooning. Or if had been in 5/4 I would have thought maybe Jethro Tull's 'Living in the Past'. In any of those cases, it's the folky-jazz sound that I hear. As soon as I heard the Coldplay song, I thought "OMG! He's channeling Michael Franks!" So of the two tracks, my opinion (as little as it matters) is that the Coldplay tune is more derivative than yours. I hope you work your tune up; I'd like to hear the finished piece!

peace

If only I knew someone of the stature of Mitchell or Ian! I think this one will become a short instrumental with perhaps some piano, just because I know I can accomplish at least that much in the 11 days!

Listening to the demos posted around here, I'm amazed at the originality and creativity people here muster in such a short period of time. With only 29 days to write and record, I'm surprised there isn't more cultural flotsam and jetsam (like Coldplay riffs) working their way into people's songs!

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