normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 21:25Any suggestion on how to normalizing the volume for all the songs when burning to a CD? What program can I use to make the soft / loud songs around the same volume? Thanks.
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ilovejen
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 21:41Normalizing will just max the loudest point in a song - it won't make the overall song louder as compared to other songs, but it will help. You can try compressing your songs, but I would be reserved in doing that.
Loading all your exported songs into a single editor lined up as a single track and automating the volume between the tracks is a great way to quickly even out different track volumes without having to use a compression algorithm that may distort or flatten nuance in your music.
And really, there's nothing wrong with a quiet track on an album.
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urt
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 22:33I agree with I Love Jen, Split the track up into sections (I am using pro tools) and areas of quietness vs loudness and then use some form of Gain on them instead of Normalizing (which only ever works once when you have recorded the line)
I use a combination of gain boosting and reduction and matching volume levels between bits (this is more to do with my dodgy playing than anything else!)
As long as dynamically the song sits together and isn't peaking then it's a should be okay. Try to listen to mastered songs on at least threee different audio setups to see if anything major gets flagged up and a compressor across the main mix (I think) is always a good idea, not for massive compression but it helps to separate each instrument somewhat .
Hope this helps!
Urt :o)
PS - During recording If the audio waves are all over the shop, more due to technique than dynamic range then use a compressor as you record and you'll get a hell of a lot more normalizing when the recording is done. (Set a bloody perfect compression for the recording or you just move the problems to the recording rather than mastering!)
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Kemmler
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 22:33Load up the Waves L3 plugin, set the threshold to -18db, release time 15ms, max level -0.01db.
Just kidding... mostly.
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Jeffrey David Archer
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 22:45There is a free audio program called "Audiograbber" that you can download. One of the nice things about it is that you can normalize files in batches. Try it out and see if you like it.
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jimtyrrell
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 22:48I used a Nero CD burning thing to make my audio CD. It had an option to 'normalize' the audio levels of the tracks. It did not handle this responsibility well. Several of the tracks were pushed into distortion by it. So I grudgingly went back and tried to boost the levels of stuff as far as I could without blowing it out. I think the result is still a little quiet overall, but better that than a clippy mess, I suppose.
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Jeffrey David Archer
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 22:50jimtyrrell wrote: I used a Nero CD burning thing to make my audio CD. It had an option to 'normalize' the audio levels of the tracks. It did not handle this responsibility well. Several of the tracks were pushed into distortion by it. So I grudgingly went back and tried to boost the levels of stuff as far as I could without blowing it out. I think the result is still a little quiet overall, but better that than a clippy mess, I suppose.
I used the same Nero normalizing function that you speak of last year for my RPM album and I had the same distorted results. Audiograbber worked a lot better.
Post edited by: Jeffrey David Archer, at: 2008/02/25 22:50
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brantleyallen
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 23:01Do things really need to pushed all the way up 0db? I always feel the pressure to make stuff loud when I compare a track to a recently produced track. But, if I compare it to an older release, say Hemispheres (?!), it's ok. Is there really anything wrong with maxing at -6db or more?
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Joshua Wentz
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 23:06For me, it's more a matter of consistency between tracks on an album versus whether a whole album is as loud as another one.
As long as one track doesn't just destroy my ears because it's 15db louder than the rest of them, it's fine by me.
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If you are working from 24 or 32-bit source files, you should definetly normalize to 0db. If you are working from 16-bit source files, you should normalize anyway. Since CDs are 16-bit, if you neglect to normalize from 24 or 32-bit masters, you are throwing away data and unnecessarily raising your noise floor during playback.
If you're using 16-bit masters, you should normalize anyway, to give the playback equipment more to work with. However, you won't risk throwing away data if you don't.
There is some legitimate debate as to whether you should normalize the whole album at once, or just track by track - it depends on your material.
However I do suggest normalizing to 0, just to take advantage of all of your bits.
EDIT: this is not to say you should use a limiter or maximizer to get your RMS closer to 0db. This is more of a aesthetic question. However, using a strict normalization to 0 is technically sound and won't affect your dynamic range.
Post edited by: Kemmler, at: 2008/02/25 23:12
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tangmo
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 23:23brantleyallen wrote: Do things really need to pushed all the way up 0db? I always feel the pressure to make stuff loud when I compare a track to a recently produced track. But, if I compare it to an older release, say Hemispheres (?!), it's ok. Is there really anything wrong with maxing at -6db or more?
I certainly don't think so. But consider where you're music is likely headed. If it winds up on an i-pod in Mp3 with tons of other selections, it might be out of place. If it's going to be spun in a CD player, then the volume knob works wonders. Also...know that when/if your music gets converted to Mp3 you will very likely lose some headroom, so maximizing to -0 will introduce clipping.
I don't know of any free programs that do this, but the best thing about digital mastering is the ability to see the waveform. If it 'looks' ok but has a few transient spikes, then limiting and maximizing to a new ceiling will usually adress them. It it's quite jagged and full of spikes, then some light compression might be called for. If it's simply dynamic with good highs and lows, then normalizing to a level is probably the best--especially if you don't want it overcompressed and like the dynamics.
I know they say 'Trust your ears" but I really like to add my eyes as well.
My ceiling is always -2.0. At that ceiling there is enough headroom to allow for compression to a new format. Other than that, it just keeps me from reaching constantly for the volume knob, and is no better than -4.0 or -6.0.
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Kemmler
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/25 23:47lso...know that when/if your music gets converted to Mp3 you will very likely lose some headroom, so maximizing to -0 will introduce clipping.
This shouldn't be the case most of the time, unless your codec doesn't take into account bit-depth changes...
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Gumbo
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/26 00:46Kemmler wrote: However I do suggest normalizing to 0, just to take advantage of all of your bits.
Cheeky Boy!!
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urt
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/26 01:37-3 DB is a good constant for recordings at 44.1khz so that it stays in the realm of the CD it will end up on.
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Wow - I'm surprised Mick isn't in here screaming yet... so I'll step in for him...
The answer is: NO!
Look - we've all been subject to the loudness wars, and yeah, it'd be nice to be as loud as every other disc...
But unless you're using high-end plugs and serious spectrum analyzers, this is a Very Bad Idea.
The reasons are simple:
• At 16bit, your headroom is drastically less than that of 24bit - and your signal is prone to transient peaks that will push the signal into digital clipping... which, unlike analogue clipping, is VERY ugly and not at all musical. It won't be distortion you'll be hearing...
• Normalizing can be also detrimental to the mix, in that certain frequencies can be overly accented - making for either a shrill, or bass-heavy, or muddy mix - and sometimes all three.
• You will also lose transparency to the mix - sure, it will sound meaty, but any subtle touches you've worked for will evaporate.
In a 16bit mix, your MAXIMUM gain should top out at -3db. It won't be as loud, but it will sound much better. If the track isn't quite there, work your individual track levels, or add a little compression to the individual tracks to tighten them up. Rarely (if ever) put a compressor across your master bus. (That last rule can be broken, but do it gently.)
Most pro mastering engineers prefer to see your tracks delivered at 24/96K, with peak levels set at no more than -6db - and no end-stage compression. That gives them room to breathe in mastering your tracks. Remember - they have much better tools to work with than you do - so if you're going to master your tracks yourself, do it carefully.
Don't use a screwdriver to hammer a nail, and never use a hammer to tighten a screw. Do your levels clean-up in the mix - and not at a master stage.
'Nuff said.
kirk (& wendy) aka acl, aka another cultural landslide
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Zanois
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/26 03:14ilovejen's system will work really well, but if for some reason it doesn't, I recommend downloading Nero Cd burner. I think you can find a free trial version if you search on Google, but it comes with a lot of PCs... It has a normalize option when you burn a CD, which has worked fairly well for me.
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Lunarsight
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/26 03:29I'm not doing any global normalization itself - I've never liked the one-size-fits-all approach to it.
I've been going through with Adobe Audition, trying to get the levels right for each particular song. I want to make the 'loud' songs stand out, while letting the more mellow tracks hold back a little bit.
I find what has worked for me is using conservative hard-limiting (sans output gain) to deal with spots where the sound momentarily spikes significantly higher than the rest of the song, and then normalizing the whole thing up (to 0db). (You have to be real careful with hard-limiting, though - if you hard limit to too low a value, it's kind of like a barber cutting too deep and scalping the unfortunate person in the chair.)
Oh yeah - like others have said - don't try mastering at 16bit. Go higher. The former leads to more clipping. Clipping is bad. Especially if you're spending a lot of time in the red. (You can get away with a brief spike, especially when you're working above 16bit - however, if you're LIVING up in the red, it's going to sound sucky.)
As far as normalizing goes, I don't hate it as much as most people do.
Realistically? Normalizing by itself does NOT NOT NOT raise anything relative to anything else. It just gets the level of the song up to the 'standard'. The end result is the person doesn't have to jack up his volume control as much to hear your music.
Post edited by: Lunarsight, at: 2008/02/26 04:13
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dre
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/26 03:32Joshua Wentz wrote: As long as one track doesn't just destroy my ears because it's 15db louder than the rest of them, it's fine by me.
This is actually what I’m trying to avoid. Didn’t mean to make this a "loudness wars" thread. Thanks for all the advice; I’ll look into some of them.
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Peak. The highest level which your selection hits.
Volume. The setting of your listening device
Levels. The setting of your recording and mix.
Loudness. The overall average level of your selection.
Normalizing (to peak value). Similiar (or identical) to maximizing--a mastering tool which raises or lowers the level of your overall selection by placing the peak level at a designated point.
Normalizing (to Average RMS). Not sure exactly what this is, but it seems to me to be similar to compression, and in my .wav editor is best avoided.
Limiting. The lowering of all levels in your selection that exceed a designated dB. This process leaves levels in your selection that do not exceed the designated dB where they were, so Limiting is often combined with Maximizing of Normalizing to Peak value
Compression. Can't be easily defined, but the process typically raises low levels and dampens high levels in the selection. Thus it reduces the overall dynamic range, which is what makes loudness loud.
MultiBand Compression. Does essentially the same thing as compression, but does it over frequency ranges. For example, a three band Compressor will compress lows, mids and highs seperately to values you designate.
Like ACL implied--Save Your Pre-Masters! Even if you can't find a qualified sound engineer (And I'm definately not one) you may well learn yourself how to do it better and want to tackle some of your earlier work. Once this stuff is done, it can't be undone...certainly not compression. So save your final mix as a seperate file, if you are working in Digital and tuck it away for the future.
Pardon me my errors, and forgive me my school-marmish ways.
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Wow - I'm surprised Mick isn't in here screaming yet... so I'll step in for him...
The answer is: NO!
In a 16bit mix, your MAXIMUM gain should top out at -3db. It won't be as loud, but it will sound much better. If the track isn't quite there, work your individual track levels, or add a little compression to the individual tracks to tighten them up. Rarely (if ever) put a compressor across your master bus. (That last rule can be broken, but do it gently.)
Most pro mastering engineers prefer to see your tracks delivered at 24/96K, with peak levels set at no more than -6db - and no end-stage compression. That gives them room to breathe in mastering your tracks. Remember - they have much better tools to work with than you do - so if you're going to master your tracks yourself, do it carefully.
Don't use a screwdriver to hammer a nail, and never use a hammer to tighten a screw. Do your levels clean-up in the mix - and not at a master stage.
'Nuff said.
kirk (& wendy) aka acl, aka another cultural landslide
This stuff is true for earlier recording/mixing stages. However I still maintain that you might as well have your peaks top out at, say, -0.01db as the last stage before throwing it on a CD. There's no sense in leaving bits unused if you're not going to do any more mixing, editing, etc.
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sheph
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/26 05:33I found that -3db peak on the overall gives me a nice sound without clipping. This is assuming that all of your individual tracks are leveled so as to give adequate headroom (as ACL mentioned).
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mick
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Re:normalizing when burning to a CD? - 2008/02/26 07:01Mick is too busy still trying to record his last acoustic piece to scream too much but I agree with ACL on this.
I do want to add a few points for those interested:
At 48/float (What I record at) 1) I master individual tracks first at -2db on the mastering console with a 1,024 band EQ and 3 band compressor, but unlike ACL I will use a hard brick-wall limiter on the master bus set at -2db. This is a digital look ahead limiter and is the CORRECT kind of limiter to use on the master bus. NO LOOK AHEAD NO USEY!
2) Then I string them together in the DAW, one song per track, setting the pauses between tracks or the cross fades or fog horn or whatever the transitions are. I can adjust fades here in the DAW if they are too slow or too fast - never BUMP the volume up here, remaster if you need to go up, but going DOWN is okay.
3) I clear all the meter peaks and let the whole thing play. At the end I can see the peaks of every song. Verification, last chance. NEVER TOUCH THE MASTER BUS FADER. Leave it on 0. If something pops the peak, remaster that single track. Once all set you're good.
4) Export at 44.1/16.
5) Load the single track in your analyzer and check the peaks.
One other reason to never use 0db on the master. Digital meters are flaky and not all that accurate. If you are digitally mastering (and you probably are) the meters can be off by as much as 2.5db and they USUALLY register low, not high meaning you're over peak. Some high grade hardware (RME, probably others) is accurate and even comes with calibration application and reference tones.
6) Create an table of contents (TOC) file to create the index of your disk. I never add tracks with basic 2 second pauses. Do the math, it's worth it. Mastering is best done in control freak mode.
Back to the clarinet.
Post edited by: mick, at: 2008/02/26 07:55
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