recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2007/02/05 13:53i went to school for recording engineering, where i learned a lot of useful things, but they didn't teach me anything about mastering except a generic way of doing it in pro tools (i.e.- importing mix to 3 stereo tracks and eq'ing hi mid lo and compressing). my problem is that even doing it this way and getting as much db out of it without clipping the master track, it is still pretty quiet compared to professional cd tracks. does anyone have any tips?
thanks for your time.
regards.
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Jon Nolan!
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2007/02/05 15:18limestone john wrote: i went to school for recording engineering, where i learned a lot of useful things, but they didn't teach me anything about mastering except a generic way of doing it in pro tools (i.e.- importing mix to 3 stereo tracks and eq'ing hi mid lo and compressing). my problem is that even doing it this way and getting as much db out of it without clipping the master track, it is still pretty quiet compared to professional cd tracks. does anyone have any tips?
thanks for your time.
regards.
so you're using protools then? do you have PSP Vintage Warmer of any sort of mastering comp plug-in? if you're mostly looking to get the overall level up, any stereo comp on the stereo buss would likely do in a pinch for that.
if it were me though, i'd avoid the 3/stereo track EQ thing. that's me though. i'd suggest just doing your best to get the sounds as awesome as you can while tracking. take the extra time to set up the mics and stuff - to make sure you like the sounds to start with, and that they're 'playing nicely' together.
if you're getting good sounds from the start, this will mean less need for EQ during mixing, and mastering of course.
something i learned from last years RPM - i tracked each song as it was written for the most part. as a result, my sounds weren't terribly uniform. this year i'm gonna write 'em all fisrt, and then track 'em - like i would normally. i'm thinking this will help the marry the sounds/songs together better.
anyhoo, just some thoughts. good luck!
cheers, Jon
ps - here's an informative and mammoth thread about recording levels and mastering over at the TapeOp forum.
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As a total recording newbie (to the engineering side, at least) that whole forum is going to help me, immensely!!! I often feel totally lost and clueless, and I'm only working with GarageBand 1.1! Thanks for posting the link, Jon. And thanks also to Limestone for posting the original question. I knew I'd learn something useful around here. (^-^)
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I have little technical knowledge but what I can get from this thread is...
Record the tracks at a lower lever (like -12) instead of 0db? and then turn the level of the mix up during final mixing? And the result is a clearer more full sounding recording?
Am I getting it right here or completely missing the point?
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limestone john
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2007/02/05 16:30i just read it, and it was helpful, you are getting it right, which is funny, because i learned in school to track things hot in digital but not as hot on tape (which i dont use currently). it was a great thread, but i couldn't really find anything about mastering. i have been a member of the tape op forums for about a week, and i am sure i can find something. i just thought it would be easier on here if anyone had the same problem because i feel that if i ask my question on tape op's forum people will say "that question has already been asked a million times, look through every post until you find it, NOOB!" maybe they are nicer than that, but they do seem to argue a lot.
thanks for pointing me that way, though.
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limestone john
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2007/02/05 16:36oh yeah, sunshine, that is the point they are getting at, but remember that these people are probably recording with expensive analog gear and the like, so if you are doing this in your home, you need to be careful about recording lower, because that might introduce more noise from your preamps or mics or whatever. but i intend on recording everything for my rpm album at around -18 to -12 to see if it sounds better.
regards.
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KimWalker
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2007/02/05 21:35limestone john wrote: my problem is that even doing it this way and getting as much db out of it without clipping the master track, it is still pretty quiet compared to professional cd tracks.
Have you ever ripped a modern, professional CD track and looked at the waveform in a sound editor? Try it. It will be a revelation -- a horrific revelation.
Basically, your modern mastering engineer takes a track and squashes it flat with compressors and hard limiters, so that there's pretty much no white space left in it at all. Goodbye dynamics, hello listening fatigue.
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Set up a Group track. Bus all the guitar tracks, drums tracks, vocals tracks to a master track. From there tweak the EQ, Volume, other FX. Leaving the individual pan, volume, EQ and Fx on the original tracks. This also helps manage computer resources for intensive FX like Compression.
From there, bus the group tracks to a final stereo ( or 5.1 ) master track.
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tangmo
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2007/02/06 05:34Yeah, Kim...they look like a 2x4. I can understand that kind of compression/limiting for radio, but not for CD.
I'm no pro by a longshot, but here's 3 cents worth:
If your signal is line in, You don't have to worry so much about signal strength, because in boosting it in the mix, you aren't introducing lots of noise.
If your signal is Mic in, you do need to get as strong a signal as possible (without clipping) or you may introduce noise along with what you are mic'ing.
Clipping is bad in digital...very bad. It CAN be fixed if it's not to frequent and doesn't last too long, but you need a good .wav editor to do it. Definately best avoided.
I apply light compression/limiting to vocals and acoustic and any other instruments that tend to spike wildly. I do this before mixing. Soft knee, 2 or 3:1 at -(whatever dB level the spikes begin at). Use your ears...if nothing jumps out glaringly, you're probably cool. This is, of course, if you are recording without a compressor/limiter in the chain.
I prefer to EQ, if necessary, in the mix rather than in mastering.
I try to mix to a peak level of -6 to -8. Odd spikes may shoot it higher, but they can be tamed. This gives some headroom in mastering.
Mastering, I'll apply another dose of light compression/limiting to the entire track to even out big spikes and bring everything into balance.
Once there, I'll raise the dB of the track to -2 (for CD). Some people aim for more volume, but that headroom allows ripping to Mp3 or .wma without clipping. Since a lot of what is on your CD is destined for that fate, it's good to build in that headroom.
For this project/challenge, I'm not spending the time up front to really polish (within my abilities) a mix and master. I've still got 7 songs to write/record.
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stevenbacon
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2008/01/19 00:03something that i've found helpful is to eq the tracks in relationship to each other (before mastering). i think of the frequency spectrum as a crowded place where only one thing can occupy one space... so if there's bass in the song, i'll cut bass from my guitar, strings and vocal tracks, and let the bass guitar and bass drum occupy that space. the bass from the bass guitar and bass drum makes everything sound full and natural, not crowded and overly boomy.It's also to get a louder final track with out as much of a compressed sound, because there's not an overload of bass peaking my compression plugin. When i've cleaned the mix up in this way, then i "master" by making a stereo master track of the mix, adding some compression, maybe a little eq, maybe a little reverb.
by the way, if you go in with this theory, you can begin with mic placement and realize that maybe that acoustic guitar doesn't need a big boomy bassy sound and adjust the mic (or mics) accordingly.
-steven
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tangmo
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2008/01/19 03:02another old thread (and very worth it reading) as well as a reminder of what an annoying little prat I was. My apologies to all who endured me.
But I STILL don't like 'professional' CD mastering and the Loudness War.
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Gary Fox
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2008/01/19 03:15This is a great thread. I am not really qualified in this area, but here is what I have learned from people who are much smarter than me.
1. Garbage in, garbage out. I always make sure I am printing hot enough to tape, or, now that I have been direct to hard drive for a while, almost peaking the meters. I try to get a good, loud, clean sound. Using drum loops helps a lot for me, since I put them at default levels and check gtr, bass and vox against them. The better the sound going in, the less work down the line. I learned that the phrase "we'll fix it in the mix" is the kiss of death.
2. Mic placement, mic placement, mic placement. One inch can make all the difference. It's amazing how moving a mike around can completely alter the sound of an acoustic gtr, or an amp, or your voice. Experiment.
3. Don't mix right after recording. The hardest part of the Challenge is the fact that you may be mixing right after you record. Hey, you do what you have to, but in general, it's best to mix a song that you haven't listened to for at least a few days. It's fresher that way. Also, try to keep your environment quiet for the hours before you know you are mixing. In other words, if I am mixing at 11am, no music, no tv, no nothing before that so my ears are rested. Again, this is very hard to do with the Challenge time limits, but helps a lot.
4. Get help. Read, ask people who really know what they're doing (like the talented people here in this thread), experiment.
I know I didn't offer mastering advice per se, but per line 1; the better the source, the better the result.
Cheers,
Gary
PS- Tangmo, you could never be annoying.
Post edited by: Gary Fox, at: 2008/01/19 03:17
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mick
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2008/01/19 04:53No, Tang, you're right on. As recording equipment got better and the noise ratio reduced music got louder and louder. Now today with digital everything the noise is low and the signal strength required to record is almost nothing so music has gotten very loud.
I like to take a group that's been around a long time, like the Stones or Rush. Listen to their disks in order from old to new (problem is many old disk have been remastered). They will get louder and louder and louder as the time goes by. A real good example is Rush. Their last disks was so loud it was no longer clean -- no noise -- but individual instruments are lost in the blur of NOISE.
The other thing I don't like about many "pro" mastered disk is the BIG FAT VOCALS. They are so LARGE they take up all the spatial area. This is less and less with such genres as grunge but many jazz albums suffer from this I think. Back em off. I don't need Paul Banyan singing in my face.
Anyway enough rants.
Mastering has four main aims: 1) Equalize volumes 2) Produce a similar tonal sound (EQ work) 3) Song sequence 4) Put it in a form that can be produce
Doesn't sound like much, but it's a true art.
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Chris Decato
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2008/01/19 05:31This is a great thread... and as a guy that offers mastering services, i'm glad to see that folks are at least talking about it. I hope that we might be able to shed some light on the mystery... without ruining it for everyone.
1stly I have to kindly disagree with Mick about records and CD's getting louder because of the gear being better or worse... they have gotten louder for sure... but it's about $$!! and a simple phenomenon where if you compare 2 sounds, the one that is louder will be "better" sounding in most cases... even when it's not true. And where the CD had a volume limit of 0... Labels mostly, wanted to have the BEST sounding stuff compared to the song played before them... and the volume wars began... it's about perceived loudness... because a CD is only as loud as 0... no matter what!!
Mastering is a crucial step, and those of you that have ripped a commercial CD and compared their waveform to yours can see why... but the fact that it may look like a brick isn't why it sounds good, or bad. Like Gary said, garbage in, garbage out... it's still the rule. The quality of the individual tracks is 1st and foremost the key to a great sound, and I'm more talking about the playing then the SOUND... I've seen it written a thousand times, but it's true... we would all rather listen to a compelling song recorded in a trash can that a crappy song recorded in a million dollar studio. But to get back to the sound... you all added great bits of info here... Gary talked about mic placement... Steve Bacon mentioned creating space for each instrument using EQ so things aren't competing... here's my thing. When your tracking instruments... get the level as hot as you can without going over 0... then when mixing leave a few db of headroom but not more that 3 or 4. you want to use all the resolution available to you... then if you must master your own stuff... beg borrow or... well, get! the best EQ/compression/limiting box or plug ins you can!! There is a reason why that good stuff costs more... and what you hear on commercial records is why those guys don't use cheap gear... I don't mean to say that you cant get a good sound with cheap stuff... but there are times when you can skimp, and mastering isn't one... here's a list of some of the plugs that I've used with good results... (I'm sure there is other stuff that works great... this is just my experience) the IK T-Rack bundle is actually not bad... if you don't push it to hard... it gets grindy if you do. The TC Electronics MasterX thing is pretty cool... kind of like a finalizer box in software... actually the finalizer is still a pretty great all in one box if you know someone who has one... thats how I learned to do it!! The Waves Masters bundle is what I use, and I love it... I can make bricks or puffy clouds, depending on what the stuff should be, and the result is clear and full, without being grindy or harsh... sweet
I'll share the secret too... I don't think how to use it can be told on a forum like this... but what it's about is multiband compression... i rarely use an eq, it happens when there is something that I need to "fix" but if I get a mix that sounds right as soon as I put it up, the only thing that I'm gonna be doing is a final "shaping" with the different bands of compression. The levels of each band can work much like eq, where your turning up or down the bass, or mids, or whatever... but it's a real gentle thing... that you can completely dial in, or destroy a great mix with
SO!! be fricken careful!! OR CALL a professional for cripes sakes!! we don't all need to know how to do EVERYTHING!!! do we??
Good Luck to All in 08!!!
WOOP
chris
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mick
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2008/01/19 06:22Yup, Chris, I master with a three band compressor with adjustable freq limits finalized to a last hard wall compressor on the end and it makes all the difference in the world. I totally agree with you there.
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Gary Fox
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2008/01/19 07:10Chris Decato wrote: This is a great thread... and as a guy that offers mastering services, i'm glad to see that folks are at least talking about it. I hope that we might be able to shed some light on the mystery... without ruining it for everyone.
Thanks Chris, that helps, a lot. For the others out there, I have known Chris off and on through the Seacoast NH music scene for about 15 years or so. Damn Chris, we are aging rapidly. I think you have more kids though...
Anyway, something else occurred to me about this, since it is a problem I am dealing with right now:
Good Speakers. Having speakers that accurately represent your mix are essential. I fear cost will become a factor, but I am recognizing the need for good studio monitors.
A bit of perspective here: If you are a young musician just starting out, and you are thankful just to have a mic, a laptop and some free recording software, or even an old 4-track, don't freak reading this. You don't need all this stuff yet, or maybe ever. Just work on writing good music and worry about the gear after you are happy with the music. This thread is clearly for those who have the cash and/or inclination to explore another side to doing all this. It's good to know about at some point, but like Chris said, a great song recorded in a trash can is far more compelling than a medicore song done in a million dollar studio. (or as I like to say, you can't polish a turd)
Ok, enough from me for tonight.
Cheers,
Gary
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Seattleguitarman
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2008/01/19 20:02I went through an Audio Production program last year. Mastering was talked about as almost a black art, not so much in a negative light but instead as a mysterious process.
I picked up a new book a few weeks ago that I've just started:
Mastering Music at Home: How to Master Your Recordings for CD and Web Distributions by Mitch Gallagher.
I liked his Pro Tools Clinic book and articles I've read by him.
So far it has been an informative read. It doesn't make the claim that you'll be able to do exactly the same as pro mastering houses but addresses those of us who don't have the $$ for going that route and what our alternatives are.
As for recording levels, I'd go for as hot per track as possible to get the most of your digital resolution...without clipping of course. THEN on your mix you can drop the db levels of each track to make for a good balanced mix.
I've found it interesting to pop a number of favorite commercial recordings into Adobe Audition and the do a screen capture. Some are one flat horizontal color band, whereas say Joni Mitchell's Hejira CD looks like a distant mountain range with a fair bit of sky up above. [img attached of some of those]
Hmmm, makes me want to go look at Radiohead's In Rainbows.
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Marchand
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2008/01/20 08:35Kudos Chris.... multiband compression is crucial... and as always you can't make chicken soup outta chicken shit..
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thel1195
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Re:recording engineers - mastering tips? - 2008/01/20 09:13I'm glad mentioned the spreaker thing. I messed up more mixes using the wrong speakers. And when I got better, more accurate speakers, they were placed badly in the room as opposed to where I was sitting. The distance and height are important for an accurate mix...or master. Good to know about the compression though. I've EQ 'd till I was blue and I was not happy with the mix. I'll look for a multiband compressor plugin for my Pro Tools now.
One thing I'm am going to try this year. Since I aiming at an old school funk thing, I may try bouncing the digital mix down to tape and back. This is something I heard a mastering guy say he does for some of the rap mixes. I think ideally, it would record to tape and then bounce each track to digital. I don't have the gear for that.
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YES!! Speakers and your room, and their position in the room!! ARG! it's kinda endless... You know that at Gateway in Portland, the stands that the speakers are on... are concrete that is connected to the bedrock 8-/ fun stuff...
so you guys know about how to position speakers so that you make a perfect triangle with each speaker right?? so that you are the same distance from each speaker, and each speaker is the same distance from you... and the other speaker. simple really... but important.
whats tough is trying to fix a room that messes with your mixes... even though you have good speakers... HASSLE!
rock on!
chris
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It seems to me that the way to record a song depends a lot on the style of music that you do. For example, for a blues album you might want to achieve a live feel that has a somewhat smoky quality as apposed to a country album where you might want everything ultra clean and crisp. Two good examples might be to listen to any top 40 country and listen to what you hear high in the mix and then go and listen to anything by Stevie Ray Vaughn where almost everything they did was live. Stevie was famous for hating overdubs.
When we record and play live, I take what I like to call the Motown approach...that is having the bass, drums and vocals high in the mix and the guitar mixed slightly below that. The best advice for sound I ever received was from my friend Stanton Hoffman of the Killer Bees. He told me that bass and drums will always fill up a dance floor.....guitar never will.......well maybe not the best advice for all but it works for us......that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Tim Allen myspace-timallensbluestime
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